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stricken out； he tells us in a speech； not then but since； that these
alterations and modifications in the bill had been made by HIM； in
consultation with Toombs； the originator of the bill。 He tells us
the same to…day。 He says there were certain modifications made in
the bill in committee that he did not vote for。 I ask you to
remember； while certain amendments were made which he disapproved of；
but which a majority of the committee voted in； he has himself told
us that in this particular the alterations and modifications were
made by him； upon consultation with Toombs。 We have his own word
that these alterations were made by him； and not by the committee。
Now； I ask； what is the reason Judge Douglas is so chary about coming
to the exact question？ What is the reason he will not tell you
anything about How it was made； BY WHOM it was made； or that he
remembers it being made at all？ Why does he stand playing upon the
meaning of words and quibbling around the edges of the evidence？ If
he can explain all this； but leaves it unexplained； I have the right
to infer that Judge Douglas understood it was the purpose of his
party； in engineering that bill through； to make a constitution； and
have Kansas come into the Union with that constitution； without its
being submitted to a vote of the people。 If he will explain his
action on this question； by giving a better reason for the facts that
happened than he has done； it will be satisfactory。 But until he
does thatuntil he gives a better or more plausible reason than he
has offered against the evidence in the caseI suggest to him it
will not avail him at all that he swells himself up； takes on
dignity； and calls people liars。 Why； sir； there is not a word in
Trumbull's speech that depends on Trumbull's veracity at all。 He has
only arrayed the evidence and told you what follows as a matter of
reasoning。 There is not a statement in the whole speech that depends
on Trumbull's word。 If you have ever studied geometry； you remember
that by a course of reasoning Euclid proves that all the angles in a
triangle are equal to two right angles。 Euclid has shown you how to
work it out。 Now； if you undertake to disprove that proposition； and
to show that it is erroneous； would you prove it to be false by
calling Euclid a liar？ They tell me that my time is out； and
therefore I close。
FIFTH JOINT DEBATE； AT GALESBURGH；
OCTOBER 7； 1858
Mr。 LINCOLN'S REPLY。
MY FELLOW…CITIZENS： A very large portion of the speech which Judge
Douglas has addressed to you has previously been delivered and put in
print。 I do not mean that for a hit upon the Judge at all。… If I
had not been interrupted； I was going to say that such an answer as I
was able to make to a very large portion of it had already been more
than once made and published。 There has been an opportunity afforded
to the public to see our respective views upon the topics discussed
in a large portion of the speech which he has just delivered。 I make
these remarks for the purpose of excusing myself for not passing over
the entire ground that the Judge has traversed。 I however desire to
take up some of the points that he has attended to； and ask your
attention to them； and I shall follow him backwards upon some notes
which I have taken； reversing the order； by beginning where he
concluded。
The Judge has alluded to the Declaration of Independence； and
insisted that negroes are not included in that Declaration； and that
it is a slander upon the framers of that instrument to suppose that
negroes were meant therein； and he asks you： Is it possible to
believe that Mr。 Jefferson； who penned the immortal paper； could have
supposed himself applying the language of that instrument to the
negro race； and yet held a portion of that race in slavery？ Would he
not at once have freed them？ I only have to remark upon this part of
the Judge's speech （and that； too； very briefly； for I shall not
detain myself； or you； upon that point for any great length of time）；
that I believe the entire records of the world； from the date of the
Declaration of Independence up to within three years ago； may be
searched in vain for one single affirmation； from one single man；
that the negro was not included in the Declaration of Independence； I
think I may defy Judge Douglas to show that he ever said so； that
Washington ever said so； that any President ever said so； that any
member of Congress ever said so； or that any living man upon the
whole earth ever said so； until the necessities of the present policy
of the Democratic party； in regard to slavery； had to invent that
affirmation。 And I will remind Judge Douglas and this audience that
while Mr。 Jefferson was the owner of slaves； as undoubtedly he was；
in speaking upon this very subject he used the strong language that
〃he trembled for his country when he remembered that God was just〃；
and I will offer the highest premium in my power to Judge Douglas if
he will show that he； in all his life； ever uttered a sentiment at
all akin to that of Jefferson。
The next thing to which I will ask your attention is the Judge's
comments upon the fact； as he assumes it to be； that we cannot call
our public meetings as Republican meetings； and he instances Tazewell
County as one of the places where the friends of Lincoln have called
a public meeting and have not dared to name it a Republican meeting。
He instances Monroe County as another； where Judge Trumbull and Jehu
Baker addressed the persons whom the Judge assumes to be the friends
of Lincoln calling them the 〃Free Democracy。〃 I have the honor to
inform Judge Douglas that he spoke in that very county of Tazewell
last Saturday； and I was there on Tuesday last； and when he spoke
there； he spoke under a call not venturing to use the word
〃Democrat。〃 ＇Turning to Judge Douglas。＇ what think you of this？
So； again； there is another thing to which I would ask the Judge's
attention upon this subject。 In the contest of 1856 his party
delighted to call themselves together as the 〃National Democracy〃；
but now； if there should be a notice put up anywhere for a meeting of
the 〃National Democracy；〃 Judge Douglas and his friends would not
come。 They would not suppose themselves invited。 They would
understand that it was a call for those hateful postmasters whom he
talks about。
Now a few words in regard to these extracts from speeches of mine
which Judge Douglas has read to you； and which he supposes are in
very great contrast to each other。 Those speeches have been before
the public for a considerable time； and if they have any
inconsistency in them； if there is any conflict in them； the public
have been able to detect it。 When the Judge says； in speaking on
this subject； that I make speeches of one sort for the people of the
northern end of the State； and of a different sort for the southern
people； he assumes that I do not understand that my speeches will be
put in print and read north and south。 I knew all the while that the
speech that I made at Chicago； and the one I made at Jonesboro and
the one at Charleston； would all be put in print； and all the reading
and intelligent men in the community would see them and know all
about my opinions。 And I have not supposed； and do not now suppose；
that there is any conflict whatever between them。 But the Judge will
have it that if we do not confess that there is a sort of inequality
between the white and black races which justifies us in making them
slaves； we must then insist that there is a degree of equality that
requires us to make them our wives。 Now； I have all the while taken
a broad distinction in regard to that matter； and that is all there
is in these different speeches which he arrays here； and the entire
reading of either of the speeches will show that that distinction was
made。 Perhaps by taking two parts of the same speech he could have
got up as much of a conflict as the one he has found。 I have all the
while maintained that in so far as it should be insisted that there
was an equality between the white and black races that should produce
a perfect social and political equality； it was an impossibility。
This you have seen in my printed speeches； and with it I have said
that in their right to 〃life； liberty； and the pursuit of happiness；〃
as proclaimed in that old Declaration； the inferior races are our
equals。 And these declarations I have constantly made in reference
to the abstract moral question； to contemplate and consider when we
are legislating about any new country which is not already cursed
with the actual presence of the evil；slavery。 I have never
manifested any impatience with the necessities that spring from the
actual presence of black people amongst us； and the actual existence
of slavery amongst us where it does already exist； but I have
insisted that； in legislating for new c